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	<title>Comments on: The Economics of Electrification</title>
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	<description>public transport issues and economics in Melbourne</description>
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		<title>By: Shaun Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/#comment-972</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Re: the Spark affect - In Melbourne at any rate, I&#039;d say this should describe the phenomenon whereby rail planners and politicians see electrification as providing a standard metropolitan service level (eg. 20minute off-peak and operating hours).

This probably has more to do with most electrification projects in Victoria in recent memory being extensions (hence the existing 20-minute off-peak service is extended a couple of stations).

Things like Melton and Sunbury electrification which are often touted illustrate the some of the other benefits - Sunbury would most likely be an extensions of the Sydenham line and would improve matters, since lower capacity V/Line service (express) would likely be replaced by higher capacity all-stations service in the peaks. Most the benefit comes from getting better efficiency of the line utilisation nearer town due to all services having similar run-times and having more capacity on the services.

Melton electrification on the other hand would mean running a weird mix of electric services from Melton and Diesel services from beyond and bumping up service levels to a standard 20-minute frequency to Melton would make a mess of the existing flat junction at Sunshine. It would also make even more interesting the DoT&#039;s exciting plan for a new &quot;outer circle&quot; line - the Tarneit link - to separate V/Line services completely from metros on approach to Melbourne.

Interesting aside - I can&#039;t see too many impediments to operating 9-car or longer V&#039;locity sets express into Southern Cross (with the cost of lengthening any outer stations reasonably cheap). Longer trains don&#039;t fit at the loop stations and a lot of inner city stations would be hard/costly to lengthen. Except by electrifying a couple of platforms in the Southern Cross terminus, I can&#039;t imagine an easier way to provide some peak metro-express capacity than running 9-car or 12-car V/Lines and picking up at 1-2 key suburban stations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: the Spark affect &#8211; In Melbourne at any rate, I&#8217;d say this should describe the phenomenon whereby rail planners and politicians see electrification as providing a standard metropolitan service level (eg. 20minute off-peak and operating hours).</p>
<p>This probably has more to do with most electrification projects in Victoria in recent memory being extensions (hence the existing 20-minute off-peak service is extended a couple of stations).</p>
<p>Things like Melton and Sunbury electrification which are often touted illustrate the some of the other benefits &#8211; Sunbury would most likely be an extensions of the Sydenham line and would improve matters, since lower capacity V/Line service (express) would likely be replaced by higher capacity all-stations service in the peaks. Most the benefit comes from getting better efficiency of the line utilisation nearer town due to all services having similar run-times and having more capacity on the services.</p>
<p>Melton electrification on the other hand would mean running a weird mix of electric services from Melton and Diesel services from beyond and bumping up service levels to a standard 20-minute frequency to Melton would make a mess of the existing flat junction at Sunshine. It would also make even more interesting the DoT&#8217;s exciting plan for a new &#8220;outer circle&#8221; line &#8211; the Tarneit link &#8211; to separate V/Line services completely from metros on approach to Melbourne.</p>
<p>Interesting aside &#8211; I can&#8217;t see too many impediments to operating 9-car or longer V&#8217;locity sets express into Southern Cross (with the cost of lengthening any outer stations reasonably cheap). Longer trains don&#8217;t fit at the loop stations and a lot of inner city stations would be hard/costly to lengthen. Except by electrifying a couple of platforms in the Southern Cross terminus, I can&#8217;t imagine an easier way to provide some peak metro-express capacity than running 9-car or 12-car V/Lines and picking up at 1-2 key suburban stations.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Hansen</title>
		<link>http://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/#comment-965</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 02:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Would the red curve for electric trains be lower or higher according to whether the wiring was 25kv AC or 1500v DC. 

Regarding RIccardo&#039;s Pakenham station comment, people ar obviously prefering the more comfortable trains. Maybe we need an electric Velocity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would the red curve for electric trains be lower or higher according to whether the wiring was 25kv AC or 1500v DC. </p>
<p>Regarding RIccardo&#8217;s Pakenham station comment, people ar obviously prefering the more comfortable trains. Maybe we need an electric Velocity.</p>
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		<title>By: riccardo</title>
		<link>http://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/#comment-643</link>
		<dc:creator>riccardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 04:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://melbpt.wordpress.com/?page_id=111#comment-643</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s not loose sight of Phin&#039;s diagram. If Adelaide boosts service frequencies past a certain level, boosts train lengths and if the oil price keeps rising, they may well get their money back by electrifying. I have been quite surprised, as I noted on my own blog, that Grange and Outer Harbour are getting heavy rail, not light rail, standard electrification.

Phin, any ideas on how to cost the difference?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s not loose sight of Phin&#8217;s diagram. If Adelaide boosts service frequencies past a certain level, boosts train lengths and if the oil price keeps rising, they may well get their money back by electrifying. I have been quite surprised, as I noted on my own blog, that Grange and Outer Harbour are getting heavy rail, not light rail, standard electrification.</p>
<p>Phin, any ideas on how to cost the difference?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/#comment-642</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://melbpt.wordpress.com/?page_id=111#comment-642</guid>
		<description>Adelade to get electric trains.

http://www.premier.sa.gov.au/news.php?id=3236&amp;page=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adelade to get electric trains.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.premier.sa.gov.au/news.php?id=3236&amp;page=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.premier.sa.gov.au/news.php?id=3236&amp;page=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Calembeena</title>
		<link>http://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/#comment-583</link>
		<dc:creator>Calembeena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 03:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i would say it&#039;s more about express running.
Like you said in your Pakenham series, on the fastest VLine &#039;table it is 42 minutes into the city.
Clearly a better service
Calembeena</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i would say it&#8217;s more about express running.<br />
Like you said in your Pakenham series, on the fastest VLine &#8216;table it is 42 minutes into the city.<br />
Clearly a better service<br />
Calembeena</p>
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		<title>By: riccardo</title>
		<link>http://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/#comment-582</link>
		<dc:creator>riccardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 01:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://melbpt.wordpress.com/?page_id=111#comment-582</guid>
		<description>Thanks Sean. Why would people prefer electric trains? 

I stand at Pakenham, see people diving for seats on a Vline train while a Connex train sits on the platform opposite unloved. Why is that? The Vline train is diesel and the Connex train is electric.

Re Geelong - I suspect when we see 6 car velos with middle cars used, and some improvements at Laverton that have been promised - the Geelong service will easily accommodate more people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Sean. Why would people prefer electric trains? </p>
<p>I stand at Pakenham, see people diving for seats on a Vline train while a Connex train sits on the platform opposite unloved. Why is that? The Vline train is diesel and the Connex train is electric.</p>
<p>Re Geelong &#8211; I suspect when we see 6 car velos with middle cars used, and some improvements at Laverton that have been promised &#8211; the Geelong service will easily accommodate more people.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://melbpt.wordpress.com/electrification-economics/#comment-579</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 02:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The problem with the Geelong route in my opinion is that I dont think enough services are running.  29% growth in patronage last financial year and 25% since is pretty big and stretching staff to the limits.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23742646-2862,00.html

I also think that electrification would increase the patronage because people prefer to catch electric trains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the Geelong route in my opinion is that I dont think enough services are running.  29% growth in patronage last financial year and 25% since is pretty big and stretching staff to the limits.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23742646-2862,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23742646-2862,00.html</a></p>
<p>I also think that electrification would increase the patronage because people prefer to catch electric trains.</p>
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